90. How to write compelling non-fiction: Interview with Rhonda Salvestrini

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Have you been thinking about writing your book? Perhaps it is your life story, your knowledge and wisdom or a fictional story. Regardless of what kind of book you have in mind, you may feel insecure, frustrated or overwhelmed in writing your book. That is where a writing coach can help you to move through it. For that reason, I am really excited to share with you my interview with Rhonda Salvestrini. Rhonda is a professional writing coach and a writer for over 25 years. We had such fun recording this interview as I love writing and learning from her experience as well.

When I read through the transcript, I had another round of appreciation for her work, how to write good non-fiction and connect with our readers. I hope you will enjoy this episode as much as I do!

You can listen to this podcast on this page, iTunes, Spotify or any major podcast platforms. Alternatively, you can watch our videos below. The transcript is right at the bottom as well.

Rhoda Salvestrini is a writing coach. She is a professional writer for more than 25 years. She has helped writers to see the clarity through the chaos, overcome the hurdles of frustration transform and self-doubt. She has also supported aspiring authors to bring their story to life, long-time authors complete their memoir, and TEDx speakers bring the audience to their feet. Her mission is to help authors to feel energized and excited about the writing process; to find confidence in their voice, be inspired to write fearlessly, and connect with their audience through authenticity.

Highlights

• How words can scare people because they can bring up emotions and fears
• Transforming self-doubt into creating something impactful
• Non-fiction books are purposeful and intentional, it needs structure 
• How to write impactful non-fiction – you are still telling a story 
• Start with your “Why”
• The relationship with your writing coach is a highly personal one, she needs to understand your why and give constructive feedback, at the same time, you can be open to being receptive and non-defensive
• The importance to connect to your readers emotionally 
• Trust the process, be your authentic self instead of judging yourself 
• Know your audience – who are you talking to? 
• When it comes to writing, there are mechanics, but there is no one size fit all, the most important thing is to get the story out first 
• Different forms of editing – taking your story from good to great 
• It takes courage to write and to give it someone to edit/read but the reward is huge too

If you would like to get in touch with Rhonda, please visit her website: https://www.rhondasalvestrini.com/

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Video

Transcript

Sze Wing:	Hi, everyone. I’m really happy because, today, joining me is Rhonda Salvestrini, and she’s the Writing Coach. First time I’m interviewing a writing coach. And I write books myself, so we got lots in common, and we had some fabulous chat before so I’m super excited. So a little introduction. So apart from being a writing coach, she is a professional writer for more than 25 years, and she has helped writers to see the clarity through the chaos, overcome hurdles of frustration, transform their self-doubt. We all face that, really, seriously, when we start to write a book or anything at all. She has also supported aspiring authors bring their story to life. Sometimes some of them are longtime writers trying to complete a memoir and also TEDx speakers bring the audience to their feet. So that is super cool. Many of us want to be on TED Talks so [laughter] good tips will be from Rhonda. She has a mission. It’s to help others to feel energized and excited about the writing process because, to be honest, many of us find it really hard, especially to find confidence, to find our voice, and to be inspired to write fearlessly. So everybody should connect with Rhonda if you are really thinking about writing or becoming an author. So welcome to my show, Rhonda.
Rhonda:	Thank you for having me. I’m so happy to be here.
Sze Wing:	Yeah. Great. So I’ve got a lot of questions to ask you. But first up, please tell us a little bit about your background. I know that you told me before, but in your own words, tell us, the audience, how did you become a writing coach?
Rhonda:	Right. So like you said, for 25 years I’ve been a professional writer. I was working in high tech. I’ve worked for companies like PlayStation and Teradata. I’ve ran communications departments, and I’ve always trained writers and coached writers. And outside of my professional field, I’ve always helped writers tell their stories, be it a blog post, be it a long-form article, or a book. I’ve always been the one they come to, and it’s been an organic growth, which I love. So for the past 12 years, I’ve been doing that, and my family said let’s lean into it wholeheartedly. And so I really wanted to step into coaching because I understand how fearful writing can be. In fact, this morning, I was on with a client and she said, “Words scare me.” So I don’t want people to be fearful of words, and I want people to get over the hurdle. So it’s really been my mission, like you said, to get people more excited about writing, and I know that’s my strength. It’s to help them through those hurdles and so that’s why I became a writing coach.
Sze Wing:	And I love what you just tell us about them the lady who says she’s scared of words. Because words can be scary if you used it in a way to scare people because it brings such an impact. Some of us bring our creativity through arts, as in dancing or music, and many of us like to write. And I think a lot of people probably find it easier to write but to create an impact is a different thing. I think that sometimes scare and frustrate people. There’s so much you want to say and share, but you want to bring it home. You want to create an impact and that’s not easy. I don’t know. When I think about writing, that’s what maybe– not scares me but hold me back because I want to do something great. But I also know that if I don’t start, I would not do anything. So creating something is better than creating nothing. And then I need people like you to help me to make it great maybe. [laughter]
Rhonda:	And you bring up a solid point. My expertise is in nonfiction and so you’re right. When a thought leader or an author, like yourself, you have so much to say but you don’t know how to structure it, I always say, “Let’s start with an outline. Let’s get down the ideas first and we’ll fill it in.” But get everything out, because maybe there’s two books in you. Maybe there is a combination of books that you can pair up. There are so many different idiosyncrasies that we can look at. But let’s make sure you’re getting all of that information out, regardless, even on your first draft. I mean, Ernest Hemingway said it best that your first draft is shit, and he’s right. But that’s the time where you let yourself just write fearlessly. Don’t judge yourself. Don’t self-edit. Just give yourself the space to really write. And with nonfiction it’s very intentional, not saying that fiction isn’t. But nonfiction is very purposeful. It’s very intentional. So we want to get everything out, all of those golden nuggets, to see where we are and to see how we can structure it and move forward. And like I said, maybe have another book out of it.
Sze Wing:	I love what you said. And really, I already got two more questions. One of them is that, when we take classes or when we– for example, I do a lot of online courses to do with creativity or learning how to write and so forth. And a lot of them actually focus on fiction, about plot, about structure, not so much about nonfiction. And you were right. We still need to go through a process for nonfiction because you want to have a good nonfiction book, not a boring manual, right?
Rhonda:	You’re still telling a story at the end of the day.
Sze Wing:	Yes. Yes. So I’m really interested. I mean, partly for myself as reason, because I’m a nonfiction writer. So do you have a particular process? I was primed to ask about writing process, but this could be a coaching process with nonfiction writer. So we got so many things we want to share, or personal experience, or. Like teachers, right? You got something you want to share that can help people. So is that a process that you use or recommend because– like back to what you said, you still have a story to tell, I’ll make it interesting, not a manual.
Rhonda:	You’re right. You want it to be impactful. So we start with your why. Why are you writing this book? What is your objective for this book? And it’s interesting that you mentioned a teacher, because one of my clients is a school administrator here. And he’s writing a book about how broken he thinks our public school system is here in the states. So let’s get back. Let’s pull the layers back. Why do you want to write this book? Really, what is the message you want to get out to your audience? How do you want to position that message? When I talk with my clients, I really want to understand, at a deeper level, why they want to write this book. And one of my clients, the school administrator, said to me he didn’t want to come across as angry. And so when I did read a sampling of his book, it was. And so I was glad that he said that. So we had something to work with that we knew a position to take. But we always want to start at the beginning, and I want to see an outline so I understand your journey. Because what’s in your head isn’t in mine. I’m gonna see your story differently. But I really want to understand why you want to do this, where your heart is in it, and really the message that you want to send to to your audience. Who are you speaking to? Who is your audience? So I think it’s those little things that we need to figure out before we start diving into the story anyway.
Sze Wing:	Wow. Perfect because – I don’t know – okay, so many things here. Number one, everybody should have a writing coach like Ronda [laughter]–
Rhonda:	Thank you.
Sze Wing:	Especially nonfiction because, I think, people sometimes don’t think about it. But I won’t say that your book is like a business asset. But if you want to share your message, you want people to buy your book or at least read it, right? And even if you give a free copy – some of us may have free copy – you still want people to read it. So there’s a strategy behind how you position yourself so that people actually want to read it. And they say there’s so many books out there. And not all of us– everybody have very limited time. So to actually get your material being read, you actually need to be grateful
Sze Wing:	And you got this– what you said was gold because I think how you position yourself is so important. And sometimes, we have all the information in our head. We need someone like you, standing outside from my head and a third-person perspective, and tell us how you think you can position this and market this so that more people can read your book. It’s not about just business marketing. It’s actually how we’re going to spread the message. And that’s so important. And I think, now when you talk about it, I think about my books, that I need to have that conversation with someone like you to say, “I know what you want to say. But you say you don’t want to be angry. But – sorry – I think you sound angry.”
Rhonda:	And I want to say, too– your writing coach– it’s a very personal relationship. You want to make sure that you click. And not everyone will click with each other. So you have to make sure that you can be honest with one another, that you can receive the feedback in a positive light. You see it as constructive. You don’t see it as defensive. So it’s very important that you have that open relationship and that you feel very comfortable with your writing coach because you’re going to get into a very personal journey. Writing is personal in and of itself, whether you’re writing fiction or nonfiction. It’s very personal. And you’re on a journey. So you want to make sure that writing coach is going to help you along with your journey. And then you’re going to enjoy the ride.
Sze Wing:	Yeah. That is so true. And it’s just like anything. It is all about personal relationship. And, obviously, if you click with your writing coach, then you can bring the message out better. And we all need that. So who do you think needs a writing coach? Is it everybody or a first-time writer or even seasoned writer? What do you say when people ask you who needs a writing coach?
Rhonda:	I think everybody needs a writing coach. I need a writing coach when I’m writing. Like you said, it’s a different perspective. It’s fresh eyes. It’s someone who’s going to look at your piece and see something in it that you don’t. That’s the big key factor, someone who is going to walk you through the overwhelm, someone who’s going to help you see the nuggets that you’re writing and help you pull them out to enhance them and expand upon them for your reader. So everybody who is serious about their writing, I think, needs a writing coach. And that can span very different genres and very different industries. I help CEOs. I help authors. I help coaches. So it’s not just specific to authors. There are so many different people who want to write something, be it, like I said, a long-form article, a book, an industry piece. The help of a writing coach will get them further along faster and help them really feel confident in what they’re putting out.
Sze Wing:	Yeah. And one other thing is that no matter what, as you say, whether it’s a speech or an article or a book, I think one other thing is that especially with non-fiction, it’s so easy to fall into a trap that we’re trying to tell people something rather than show them. So nobody wants to be told. We want to sort of learn the lesson in our own way. I can imagine same CEO that you can help them to drop a speech that we can move people to tears versus bored people to death even though he’s the same guy.
Rhonda:	And that’s a perfect example. I mean, I hope that this non-profit founder write his memoir about his son who he lost to medical negligence. And he was so close to the story that he wasn’t taking his reader on a journey. He was. He was just talking at them through his words. So I had to let him know that people don’t know that your immediate family has 22 people in it. You need to tell them. People don’t understand the pain that your son was going through. You need to express it in a different way. So it’s those little nuances that will help create such a more enriching story, something that’s so deep and moving or something that’s funny or something that’s informative. So that’s where I think a writing coach really helps.
Sze Wing:	Definitely. I cannot agree with you more because when we’re too close to it, we don’t see. And sometimes you need someone to really– that’s actually a skill as well. I guess some writer– a very seasoned writer you can tell that they have been doing it like they have 30 books. Sometimes they really get that part how to make sure they don’t fall into those traps. But I think working with someone always bring you fresh energy and perspective but new impulses as well. So I guess that lead to my next question. Why are you so passionate about helping aspiring authors? So what do you get out of it in that sense?
Rhonda:	I’ve always been passionate about words. I love words. I always say that I’m not numbers– I’m words. And I’ve just always been very passionate about helping people tell their stories. I watch people struggle with writing. And I don’t want them– I don’t want it to be that hard. I want them to enjoy the process. And so I really have this passion for helping people tell their stories. And I think that’s where I’ve– this is why I’ve landed where I have. I’m really feeding my soul and helping them speak their passions.
Sze Wing:	Okay. Yeah. What came to my mind was this: I also love words and I love good writing. I was just reading a book yesterday. It’s the same. It was a very dry topic. But that is a really great writer. And she make it fun. And I also love people who write really deep and meaningful things. So I love words. But my little burning question is so I married a guy who has very few words. And I felt that people who love words tend to marry a guy with very few words. I wonder is your husband very few words?
Rhonda:	So quiet. I’m the talker– absolutely the talker. I’m the one who breaks the ice at a party. I’m the one who introduces us to strangers. But once he gets to know people he does speak more. But yes, he’s a man of few words.
Sze Wing:	Yeah.
Rhonda:	And he’s a numbers guy.
Sze Wing:	And similar to my husband. I don’t know. I’m not drawing statistics here, but I have this tendency to feel people like us tend to marry a guy with few words so we can speak more. I don’t know. But that–
Rhonda:	Right. No, I think it’s just that yin and the yang of it.
Sze Wing:	Yes. Well yeah. That’s a nice way to put it.
Rhonda:	Because you’d have two chatting people.
Sze Wing:	But sometimes the thing is that he has great one-liners but it’s one-liners.
Rhonda:	Oh, and that’s it. And you’re like, “Wait I’m stuck holding the conversation here.”
Sze Wing:	Yeah. On paragraphs.
Rhonda:	You’re right. I can use that on paragraphs. He’s a one-liner. I love that.
Sze Wing:	And the funny thing is that sometimes I want to tell him an experience or something. And I feel I’m giving a speech that you should move to tears. And then he would go, “I agree.” I’m like, “Wow. If that’s a speech I’m going to give tomorrow, I really should worry,” like, “Do you feel anything?” Yes.
Rhonda:	Right. I know. This morning, I had gone to a– I was invited to a networking event. And there was just so much positivity and so much energy and so much collaboration. And I started telling my husband about it. And I felt like I spoke for a good 15 minutes straight. And I said to him, I said, “Wow. I’m really talky today.” He’s like, “Yep.” Just left it at that.
Sze Wing:	And the thing is that sometimes I wonder oh my god. What if maybe my speech wasn’t good. You don’t want to practice something on him. But then sometimes he would say yes but there’s an emotional reaction in the face. So I felt maybe even tears in the eyes or maybe that’s the one I should be looking for. It’s not about what people say and it’s how they feel.
Rhonda:	It’s interesting you say that though because it is about emotion as well. So we want to see that when we’re talking to other people but when we’re reading someone’s book, when we’re reading someone’s article or blog post it’s how it makes us feel. And so we’re getting that emotion out of it. And so we always want to make sure we’re using our emotion through our words. And so we’re connecting with our audience that way.
Sze Wing:	I think that’s really the skill and the craft about good writing because you’re supposed to move people. Again, you show or you connect, you move them. You’re not telling them because that will be very annoying if someone tells you like you know you should feel this way if you read this.
Rhonda:	Right. You want to have your own opinion about the piece. And that was one of the beautiful things when I helped the founder write his book, the founder of the nonprofit. In the end, the reviews we received were that people sat down and read it in one sitting because they didn’t want to put it down and they were moved to tears at the end. And that to me was such a joy because I was able to help him tell his story and it touched and moved so many people. So I think that’s where a writing coach can really help an author tell their story.
Sze Wing:	Okay. So that’s something I really want to ask you. Now we all want to have that review. It was a page-turner. It moved me to tears. But a lot of us feel that we may have a good story. We may have some good material. But how do we– I mean is it something like everybody can write a page-turner? Really that’s something that I think a lot of aspiring writers struggle with that, you feel that you can’t write such a good book. I mean, can we really do it? That’s often the question. What do you say to that? People really wanted to create something like that.
Rhonda:	Regardless, you’re still creating something great you’re still doing it. And I think when we judge ourselves is where we have our limitations. We impose that head garbage in those self-doubts rather than just pouring our whole self into it. And I think that’s where a writing coach really comes in handy, if you will, because I help you really just get outside of yourself. And don’t get me wrong I get stuck in my head too when I’m writing. But if we get out of our own way and just really write with our hearts and really tell our story, be it funny, be it sad, be it be informational. If we’re talking from our hearts we can’t be questioned and we can’t be told it’s a bad story. If someone says that there is a bad story or they’re criticizing you then that’s not your audience that’s not who you want to speak to.
Sze Wing:	It feels like you’re talking about we just have to trust it. Like say we really got a story to share we really feel moved to share experience or something we have learned. We’ll just have to trust that isn’t it that you have to follow that. And do you have any tips or ways that you can help people to get into that zone or what some people say finding your voice, getting to that sort of place?
Rhonda:	Yeah. No, you hit the nail right on the head. We have to trust the process. The process might be messy. It might take a left turn sometimes but you have to trust the process. And the one beautiful thing with nonfiction is finding your voice as being your authentic selves. So trusting yourself trusting that the voice you have will speak to an audience, even if it’s just one person, although we want to speak to many. We want to just touch someone in some way, and if we’re using our authentic voice, nobody can fault us for that. And so as long as you really trust in yourself, trust in your process. And when you hit some hurdles, you find ways to get through them with a writing coach or with some tools that I can help with or tools you collected along the way like taking a walk sometimes or doing something other than your book. That will help you get through the stuck, if you will, to really concentrate on what you want to tell your audience in a very authentic, transparent way, that shows your vulnerability, and that just creates a lot of trust with your audience as well.
Sze Wing:	And some people talk about how all this, that we want more than one person who read what we write, but some people talk about kind of you have to write to that one person, as in like an avatar or something. What’s your take on that? Do you advise that or do you do it yourself, that you kind of write to a person? Is that how it works for you?
Rhonda:	That’s what I do and that’s what I recommend to my clients, especially when they’re stuck. I’ll say, “Who is your audience? Who are you writing to?” And to me, when you’re writing, you’re really having a conversation. Perhaps it might be a little more formal than you would talk to somebody, but a good practice if you’re stuck especially, is to sit down and just have a conversation with that person. In your head, speak it out loud as you’re typing and pretend like you’re having a one on one conversation. I’ve had some clients tape a picture of somebody up on their monitor to help them. Whatever tricks help. But one thing that I do when I’m writing if I’m writing a blog post or an industry article, I verbally say out loud who am I speaking to. And then I get myself in this more relaxed state, where I slow down. And a lot of times I’ll start with pen and paper because pen and paper slows you down. It slows your thinking down. Studies have shown that you get into a more focused state. You have more concentration. So I start with that. Another trick, dedicate time to write, and I tell my clients to start with 30 minutes. Just 30 minutes so you don’t feel overwhelmed by it. Have a dedicated space, where you can be uninterrupted for those 30 minutes, and get yourself into a writing place in your head, where you’re comfortable, where you’re excited to go into that room or your little corner of the world, and write. Set your timer and write and just be focused on that and let all of the other distractions go away for that time.
Sze Wing:	So when you write to that of avatar or that person, does that have to be a real person or can that be imagined person? How does that work in that sense? You’re speaking to somebody so it becomes more personal. But does it have to be someone you know? Other grieving mothers, for instance, for example. So how does it work?
Rhonda:	It’s all based on who do you want to reach. So for instance, you say other grieving mothers. If you’re the only one and you haven’t joined a group of other grieving mothers, then you have to make someone up, of course.
Sze Wing:	And that’s okay?
Rhonda:	It’s always different and that’s totally okay. Whatever works for you. It’s a very personal journey. There’s no one size fits all when it comes to writing And yes there are mechanics. Don’t get me wrong. But I don’t want to get stuck in that. Let’s get your story out. Let’s deal with the mechanics later.
Sze Wing:	So you kind of do both, you help to inspire and then you help support them to get the word so get over the initial hurdle about confidence or who to speak to. And then there are mechanics involved so it’s sort of both yin and yang together.
Rhonda:	Yeah. So we’ll go ahead and we’ll do the writing, coaching, and then I also offer developmental editing which really works on the structure of your book to make sure you have a nice flow of information. And then I also have customized packages so we can do deeper editing to go through the mechanics and to go through the copywriting and the proofing. Yes.
Sze Wing:	So that’s really good because, for those who may be interested to write something that there are different kinds of editing you mentioned, there’s the developmental, the copy editing, and then at the end of course proofreading. So for those that may not be familiar, can you tell us a little bit about it. Because many writers talk about your first draft really. It’s often very far away from your finished book because it’s so important to get your first draft out but then that’s actually a lot of work into it, and editing is super important. So tell us a little bit more about it because I think would be very helpful.
Rhonda:	Right. So with there are so many different aspects to editing. Your first draft could be your 5th draft could be your 10th draft. Do you want to self-edit, maybe? Do you want to have a manuscript review, maybe by a third person? So with developmental editing, like I said we’re going to look at either a personal piece of your manuscript or all of it and we’re going to go through and look at the structure look at what you’re trying to achieve and see your flow of information and how I can help you tell your story better with just moving some things around. And look at what needs to be expanded on. Do we have contexts? Are we really telling the reader everything that we can about this piece. It’s really taking your story from good to great. Now there are different processes and some people do them differently. You’ve got the copy editing where you’re going through the sentence structure, you’re going through the mechanics of writing, you’re looking for typos, you’re looking for sentence fragments. The “who” “what” “where” “why” and “how “all of that, the adjectives. The nouns, is everything you used correctly? And then at the end, you have the proofing. And with the different levels of editing, you can go through different rounds and it’s important that you have fresh eyes on your writing. You don’t want to spend two hours writing and then go right into editing. You want to give it some space, give your head some space, give the book some space, and let it breathe. Because when you come back you’re going to have a different perspective. You’re going to have fresh eyes. You won’t have looked at it multiple times. Because we tend to have that blindness when we’re looking at something over and over again and if a word is missing we won’t see it because we’ve looked at it so many times. So oftentimes I say to my clients, “Let your piece breathe for a day or to a week. And then come back to it with just a fresh perspective so that you can see what’s missing and see what’s wrong.
Sze Wing:	And yeah that’s a fantastic way of explaining all this. And I know that some people really need developmental editing. Some people maybe have done a lot of work or they know what they talk about or they have experience. They don’t read as much but I think every project and every person is different. And I cannot agree with you more about the leaving it– almost like, is it wine or whiskey that you have to let it breathe for a while.
Rhonda:	Wine.
Sze Wing:	Then when you come back to it, and then that will be more mature and ready. Because the same for me when I’m working on my current book. I think I got it, but then because of the baby and everything, I pack it and now I’m complete deconstructing it and then putting it back in a very different way. And sometimes a lot of books come to your life and you realize, “Oh that’s a really great structure,” and then I want to borrow from it or something.
Rhonda:	But isn’t it exciting for you to come back and see your book in a whole new light, see your manuscript in a whole new light? You look at what you created and you have these fresh ideas and these new ways that you want to structure it, so that it will be even better than what you have originally.
Sze Wing:	Yeah. And I think you talk about trust early on and that’s the thing, because I felt I’d got content, I got the material, but I felt something isn’t quite right, as in, I would say maybe it’s the structure or the format or something and I couldn’t put my finger on it. And I just need to pack it and I trust that inner guide in saying pack it, don’t rush, don’t try to push it out. And then now, after actually a couple of months because I have a baby in between, now I have a completely different way of trying to tell the story or a complete different structure from the get-go, and that only came about because I leave it enough time and space. So for some people maybe weeks, days, for me a couple of months but I think it’s about the trust again that you need to listen to your inner voice, whether it’s ready to give it to someone to look at, or you need to wait and something is yet to happen. I think that’s a fine line because sometimes we need to trust and then wait for the right time. Sometimes we are overdoing and it just that we’re scared of give it to someone. So what do you say to people in that really challenging, great, fine line?
Rhonda:	Oh, you bring up an amazing point. Yes. It’s that fear. The fear of giving it to someone. Let me back up a little bit, in that I want to point out what you were saying where we give it time to breathe. We don’t want to rush a book. I mean, there are so many people out there who say, “Oh, we could write your book in a day. We could write your book in a couple of months.” Don’t do that. I don’t encourage that. I encourage you to take your time and I always say to my clients, this is going to be a journey and it’s going to take a better part of a year. So let’s hunker down and really know that this is what we’re getting into. But you’re right, when it comes to allowing someone to see what you’ve written, you have to have trust that you’re going to get positive and constructive feedback, and you just have to know that you’re going to take your book to a new place by allowing someone else to look at it. And don’t be fearful of the criticism, even though you are because that’s just naturally who we are. We don’t want to be judged. But that’s a hurdle to get over and it’s only going to improve your book that much more by doing so, by letting someone else into your world. I mean, it’s really a gift. You’re gifting someone into a very private world of yours that you’ve been so focused on and now you’re letting someone else see it. It’s truly a gift.
Sze Wing:	Well I always say that from trust we’re going to move into brave, because you have to be brave to show it to someone. Because as you said, it’s only going to be better if they give it to someone that you know is going to help you. It’s like going to see a dentist, if that makes sense?
Rhonda:	Sure, and it takes courage too. It takes a lot of courage, to not only write your book but it does take courage to say to somebody, “Okay, here it is. Take a look and let me know what you think.”
Sze Wing:	That’s why, like we said in the beginning, you have to have a positive relationship, because it’s like giving someone your baby.
Rhonda:	Absolutely, it is your baby.
Sze Wing:	You kind of need someone to look after it properly. Not being too cruel and all that. Yeah. So it’s so wonderful to come to this point because I think we cover about trust and about being brave, and I think if someone has a book in them and want to further their writing, definitely I think what we talk about really highlight how important it is to work with someone. So if people want to get in touch, what’s the best way to get in touch with you and find out how they can work with you?
Rhonda:	So I invite everyone to visit my website at rhondasalvestrini dot com and schedule a free 15-minute developmental call with me, a discovery call level where we will talk about your project, kind of the frustrations you’re going through, and hopefully see whether I can help.
Sze Wing:	Fantastic. So I will put the full name of your website on the blog post as well so don’t worry about the spelling, and everyone can connect with you. And I’m really excited to share this podcast because I know you’re going to help a lot more people to become, and also if not, becoming a better author, myself included. So really thank you so much for joining us today.
Rhonda:	Thank you.
Sze Wing:	And thank you.