Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn | RSS | More
Many successful people consider lifelong learning a key habit for their success. This includes both work-related skills that can improve your employability and other skills and interests that can enrich your life. Nowadays, there are so many flexible ways to learn, as virtual learning has been growing and advancing exponentially in the last few years. You may be interested in adding an online course to your business or at your workplace, or perhaps you may want to know more about how to choose the right learning course for you.
For this week’s podcast, I got an interview with Jessica Pare, who is an expert in helping coaches and consultants to create online courses, programs and memberships. Among many things we talked about, we highlighted ways to encourage action from the learners so that they can learn better and the key things to include in a course to support the best learning experience. Also, we talked about how to make the courses more successful in the business sense.
About Jessica Pare:
Jessica Pare is the Founder and Chief Learning Alchemist of Alchemy Learning Solutions. It is a company that is on a mission to help more people and organisations access the wisdom that can enable them to thrive. They help coaches and consultants to Create Done-With-You Courses, Programs & Memberships.
Jess has a background in the personal growth and development field, training as a coach, and has expertise in instructional design. She provides clients with the structure, accountability, and support to bring their vision into reality through a hands-on approach that helps them avoid overwhelm and create content that has the impact they desire on their clients and their business.
If you would like to connect with Jessica Pare, please visit the Alchemy Learning Solutions website.
- Introduction to Jessica Pare; the founder and Chief Learning Alchemist of Alchemy Learning Solutions (00.12)
- What is the function of Alchemy Learning Solutions; providing structure, accountability and support (01.22)
- Three components to encourage action from the learner; reinforcing belief/letting go of self-sabotage, setting examples, creating opportunity for practice (08.55)
- The importance of the hybrid model; including social community, follow up and support (15:31)
- Why a learning community is important; emotional benefits for the learner, staying motivated (17.08)
- Benefits of the hybrid model versus evergreen courses for the course creator; up-selling, repeat clientele (19.32)
- Market research; identifying pain points and problems of the ideal client, to pinpoint when learners are most in need of follow up (23.37)
- What sets Alchemy Learning Solutions apart from other services (26:02)
Wonder Women Coaching
Want to have a breakthrough with your current state or move forward with your projects or challenges? You can now schedule a complementary 1:1 Discovery Coaching Call with me. See what 1:1 coaching can do for you and how it can supercharge your life! Let’s Talk.
Sze Wing : 00:02 Hi, everyone. I’m really happy today. I’ve got Jess Pare with me. I think it’s Jessica, but I think everybody calls you Jess, right?
Jessica: 00:11 That’s right.
Sze Wing : 00:12 And she’s also again, an overseas guest; which I love to interview people outside of Australia. She’s the founder and Chief Learning Alchemist of Alchemy Learning Solutions. It’s a company that is on a mission to help more people and organizations to access the wisdom that can enable them to thrive. They help coaches, consultants to create done-with-you, courses, programs, and memberships. So, Jess has a background in personal growth and development field, training as a coach and has expertise in instructional design. So, it’s really a no brainer really, for me; working with other instructional designers before it’s, like, we kind of need your expertise to create a good course. You know, not all the courses are the same. So, that’s my little side note, say. And it makes a huge difference for the learner, because without the learner being the centre of what you create, it’s just no different from reading out a book, or transcribing a video, isn’t it? It’s not what learning is about. Anyway, I’m so excited to interview you.
Jessica: 01:20 You’re speaking my language.
Sze Wing : 01:22 So, going back to the introduction. So, Jess provides her clients with the structure, accountability and support to bring the vision into reality, through a hands on approach that helps them avoid overwhelm and create content that has the impact they desire on the clients and the business. So it really comes back to the learner centric model and also helping the client to fulfil that. So that’s why I’m really excited to interview Jess. So, welcome to my podcast.
Jessica: 01:52 Thank you so much for that. I’m so happy to be here talking with you. And I love that you have so much wisdom already around this topic. You’re definitely speaking my language with the learner centric focus. And I see so many course creators out there who start from a position of, ‘I have all this content and I want to share it’. And I always have to, kind of, rein them in and say, people are not coming to you for all of your expertise; they’re coming to you for your curated expertise. Because we have so much information coming at us all the time, we can’t just be soaking in more information. We really need the bits and pieces that are going to help us get to the result we want, and only those bits and pieces.
Sze Wing : 02:41 Yeah. I cannot agree with you more. And I also find a lot of people – two things: one is that say, you’re a very good dancer, doesn’t mean you can teach dancing to start with. And that’s when, there’s some people that have a natural talent for it or they’ve done it so many years, so they become familiar with how to teach people through experience, trial and error. But otherwise, they actually need someone like you to help them to learn how to create content, curate content, to teach. It’s a completely different thing to be a very good dancer or expert in your field, versus teaching someone in an expert manner. It’s entirely different. And two, the second thing is that I think some people are very good at marketing themselves, so they can market and sell the product, but it doesn’t mean the product is necessarily good. You know, if you’re famous, people may just buy something from you, but it doesn’t mean you can become them.
Jessica: 03:39 Right?
Sze Wing : 03:40 And it’s sad.
Jessica: 03:42 Yeah. And you know, it’s really, kind of, alarming that only 3% of online courses – no, let me get the statistic right – only 3% of people who begin an online course, finish it. And that speaks to this problem of people putting out content, putting out courses, people buying them, but the content not being structured with the learner in mind. And so the learner, you know, buys it, they sit down and then they get distracted, they get overwhelmed and they’re just not motivated to keep moving through the content.
Sze Wing : 04:21 Yeah. So much to unpack in this interview. And if I forget, I need to make a mental note here about hybrid because that’s something I’m interested in. All right. So, note; if I say it out loud, i remember. It’s true. Right. So first of all, I really want to ask you, what prompted you to create Alchemy Learning Solutions?
Jessica: 04:49 Yeah. So Alchemy Learning Solutions is a year old now. And it was, kind of, a winding path. My background is in higher education. I worked at a university for six years; got my Master’s in Education. While I was there, I did a lot of curriculum design. So, I facilitated workshops and retreats and you know trainings for students and faculty. And I love; that being in person, getting the energy and seeing how experience and experiential learning was so powerful. So, taking a concept and applying it in real life. And then I moved into working for non-profits; educational non-profits. And again, I was training volunteers and doing workshops for high school students and their parents about the college application process. So it was thinking about, how do I convey this complicated process to people and get them to take the next step and then the next step?
Jessica: 05:53 So that’s my background. And then coming up to the time when I created my business a year ago, I had just finished my instructional design training. So I wanted to add the online learning piece to my theory and experiential learning background. And as I was thinking about, ‘Do I want to go into corporate? What do I want to do with this new skillset?’, I realized I really don’t want to go into corporate. And I had a lot of friends who were entrepreneurs, and I’ve been through a lot of coaching programs myself. And I was, like, you know what? That’s what I would love do; to work with coaches, consultants, people that are trying to help people be happier and more successful in their lives. And if I could help them reach more people, how amazing would that be? So that’s why I started Alchemy. And the word ‘alchemy’ is all about this magical process of transformation. And that’s how I see the learning process. We take some content, and we wave a magic wand and then the learner is able to experience themselves in a different way.
Sze Wing : 07:05 Love it. And I cannot again, agree with you more, in that sense that I feel when we are working, say with a commercial client or even an organization, when you have your own business, you can create impact in a very tangible way, or change the way you work with people, your cause or your service. But when you are in the corporate world, you are you know, in the big scheme of things, contributing, creating impact, but it’s a very different feel, you know? So many people say, you know if you work for NASA, even if you are a reception person, you are still helping them to put people on the moon, in the whole scheme of things. But for some of us, we really want to get hands on. And then you do want to work with people on the battlefield, so to speak, right?
Sze Wing : 07:56 So it’s very exciting for you to work with people and really help them to bring the design to reality; like we have said in the introduction. So no wonder – and we really need people like you, because I also met a lot of people who we spoke a little bit before, where they have lots of expertise, but to put the content into a course is a very different ballgame, definitely. So now this led to one of my favorite questions to ask people; is that, how do you get the learner or anyone, even your clients to take action? Because you know, this is not an easy thing, especially from a learning point of view. Like, you know, intellectually, we say, we learned this, we know this is right, but how do we get into the action piece? How can we motivate someone to change? From your perspective, from your experience, how do you tackle that?
Jessica: 08:55 I love this question. So getting people into action has a couple of components. So the most important thing is that the person believes that change is possible for them, because nobody wants to waste their time and energy doing something that they don’t believe is going to work. And when we don’t believe it’s going to work, we probably self-sabotage, or we find excuses and we don’t end up doing the thing. So what we really want to do is help the learner see that it’s possible; this change that we’re asking them to make. So that’s the first thing; belief. And part of that might also be identifying the objections they have, like, the reasons why it can’t work for them, and showing them why those are wrong. So that’s the first part. The second part is, once they believe it they need to be shown an example how to do it. So not only telling them, ‘This is how you do it’, but actually showing them, ‘This is what it looks like, this is an example, this is a template, this is a screen share video; I’m going to walk you through it’. There’s so many different ways that you can model what it is that you want them to be doing. So you show them how. Another piece is, then you give them an opportunity to practice it. And that’s where I think a lot of these online courses fall down on the job. It’s – they’re just telling, ‘This is how you do it’, not so much getting them to believe, and then not so much showing them how to do it, and also not giving them the practice. So those are three key elements to getting people to change. And then, you know, what I do with course creators as well, is keeping the momentum going; keeping touch points and accountability. So, that I meet with them every week for an hour; it’s a momentum call.
Jessica: 10:59 And that way we’re able to – even if they come to me and they say, ‘I didn’t do anything I was supposed to do in the past week on this course’, I can say, ‘Okay, great. What happened? All right, what can we do to block time off on your calendar next week? Did you have questions? Were you not sure where to start? And let me remind you, this is your big why; this is why you’re doing this’. So there are lots of ways that we can motivate and then support people to make changes.
Sze Wing : 11:26 Wow. My heart just started pumping as you explained it, because I tell you why; it’s because, you know, I read your blog and some of the things you’ve written on this topic, but while you were speaking, what really came to me, is that the first two points you mentioned, really reminded me of how people market and sell. You know, they sell you a dream or what it could be, so we get hooked. And then the second is then a bit of showing you how, or an example how other people do it. So you’re still on the hook of that dream. But what makes a distinction then, just a marketing and selling vehicle versus a real transformational program is the third piece, because if you don’t help people to actually take action to practice or, you know, make progress, no matter how small, you’re still selling them a dream; you’re still showing them a pamphlet, right?
Sze Wing : 12:19 In that sense, because if people want to see result, they actually have to do part three. So I feel like almost in pain to think about how many people are just doing part one and part two, which is just selling you a sweet dream, but they’re not trying hard enough, if I may say, to help people to do the third, which is actually where the transformation happens. And sometimes it’s not because people don’t care; it’s maybe they don’t know how, and they don’t know how important it is. And I felt there was a lightbulb moment for me to hear what you said, because that’s what makes a difference between a marketing thing versus a real course.
Jessica: 13:01 Yes.
Sze Wing : 13:02 What do you think about that?
Jessica: 13:03 Oh my gosh. I love every word you just said. Yeah. Because I, myself, have been in so many workshops, where it’s an hour. They show you – they walk me through LinkedIn. They’re like, ‘This is how you can maximize your LinkedIn profile’, like, ‘Here are all the things’. And I’m, like, yes, this is awesome. And then we get off the workshop and I go back to life as usual. Have I updated a thing on my profile? No. And it’s not because I don’t know how, and it’s not because I don’t want to; it’s because I don’t have the support. I don’t have the accountability. I don’t have anybody checking in. You know, I might sit down to actually do it, and then I’m like, wait, what did she say to do? Or I’m like, I clicked there, but it didn’t look the way it did when she did it, so now what am I supposed to do? So we need that kind of support a lot of times to help us navigate the little hiccups and to even get started. It can feel so overwhelming, like, have you noticed that? Once you start something, it flows and you get more into it and you want to keep doing it. But to just sit down and start it, can feel insurmountable. So when you’re designing a course or a program, helping people get over that hump and get into action, and then giving them little wins right at the beginning, that really also helps motivate and keep people moving through things.
Sze Wing : 14:29 And I find it like – I’m a self-starter type of person, so I’ve done my CliftonStrengths assessment. So I’m a strategic, I’m an activator. So I would be the one like you, after that LinkedIn course, I would do a couple of things at the beginning. But then I don’t have that initial hump problem, but I have the problem of down the track. Which I think what you talked about earlier, about accountability, the coaching, the making progress along the way, is so important, because I may make a couple of fast actions, but then you don’t really get the results straight away. Often you will have to make more action down the track. You will have to come back a week, a month, and that’s when you fall short. Many people probably are like me; get excited and can do a few things straight away, but that not necessarily – maybe bring you some results if we are lucky, but if you want bigger, more permanent, more substantial results, you kind of have to keep going. And that’s when a lot of this thing falls short,you know? And that’s why I come back to the note I said mentally. The hybrid model, which I think you were kind of tapping into, that gives you curated content, shows you the why and the how and all that. But then you have to keep accountability. So I found that it works so well with coaching where you want to share information first, but then you can have to check in with people along the way. Even not a very long time; don’t talk about 12 months, even three months. It makes a huge difference. Then you just leave them off after – for like the hour. So I love the hybrid. What do you think about the hybrid model?
Jessica: 16:10 I think the hybrid is really the ticket for transformation. If what you’re looking to do is provide transformation to your clients, hybrid is the way to go. I mean, how many times have you sat there and watched a video; a YouTube video, a movie or something, and been, like, ‘My life has totally changed. My habits are changed’, right? Like, you know, I watch documentaries about climate change and things like that, and I’m like, ‘Whoa, I’m going to change everything’. And then maybe I change a couple of things, right? Like you said. And then there’s nothing holding me accountable over time; there’s no group, there’s no social community that’s supporting me and reinforcing that this is important to me,nd helping me troubleshoot challenges. So I lose steam. So the hybrid model is excellent at helping people troubleshoot if there are issues or questions that come up in the process.
Jessica: 17:08 And then when you add in the social aspect of a learning community, that just punches it up with even more power, because we are social animals. And the studies have shown that we learn much better in a group setting than we do just individually. So having that component, it’s emotionally really beneficial, because it allows people to see that they’re not alone, they’re not the only one that’s facing these challenges. And so they get that sense of belonging and the stress can seep out, like, ‘Ah, okay. There’s nothing wrong with me. I’m okay. We’re all doing this together’. And then if they are in a slump and they’re not feeling motivated, they can see somebody else’s success and like, ‘Oh, wow. Okay. All right, I’m going recommit to this because I want that result too’.
Sze Wing : 18:09 And there’s such a trade-off between really doing a full scale or program, where there’s learning, the transformation, there’s a community component versus, you know, a lot of people talking about, if you’re a coach, you want to make more money, you need to scale, you need to make evergreen courses where basically, it’s just something plug and play, and there’s nothing else. I mean, there’s maybe some Q and A, but you know, who shows up for a Q and A; that’s like cold all the way, right? And I think it’s such a trade-off because, yes, obviously it makes more money, low maintenance, it’s kind of easier to create that sort of plug and play evergreen courses. And that sounds like a great way to make money. But the more I think about it, the more I have done different types of courses, I think that’s actually not very effective for the learner or I would not necessarily buy again from that seller. That’s one take off point.
Jessica: 19:05 Yes.
Sze Wing : 19:06 And it’s also a very short term relationship, I find. So I’m still very much into more the hybrid, the harder model for, you know, when you create courses, people have to choose pros and cons. So I don’t know, that’s how I find the trade-off between evergreen and something with higher maintenance, which is a big point for course creators to think about, right?
Jessica: 19:32 Yeah, absolutely. And I completely agree. I have noticed as well that when it is a self-paced, completely evergreen course, where there is no checking in, there’s no face time with the creator, you’re much more likely to have the learner fall into that 97% of people that aren’t going to finish it. Right. And so then if they’re not finishing it, they’re not getting the result, and then they’re not raving about it to all their friends, and co-workers and family. And then you’re not getting those folks as clients. And you’re also not getting the original client as a return client. And maybe you’re probably not also selling them into your up-sell offer, of your one-on-one, high ticket coaching packagebecause they never made it past the first module. So it may seem like it’s a quick and easy way to make some cash, and to scale, and to get passive income, but in the long run, the math doesn’t work out for me.
Sze Wing : 20:43 Yeah. I completely agree. So, this is just you and I, this is our opinion. People may feel differently, and that’s totally okay. Different things work for different people. I actually want to go back a step about the believing part, because at the beginning, you talk about the first piece; it’s making people believe that it’s possible. Right. So I find it – so twofold; one is that sometimes we have this negative belief. We want to believe something else, but we’re still stuck on the mindset of, you know, ‘No matter how hard I try, I’m not going to lose the weight, or make the money, or find the one’; you know, the typical three. So do you have any tips about how to help people to overcome that first? But then second is, that I find also I notice halfway through the course, if we are not checking in and doing the work, we tend to fall back to the zero position that – you know, how we go backward and say, ‘Oh, it’s not going to work for me’. So can you tell us a little bit more about the belief part; why it is so important?
Jessica: 21:54 That’s a great question. So what you made me think of, was doing market research, and really understanding your client, your customer; your ideal customer, right? Because you want to understand what those objections are going to be. What are those limiting beliefs that they have that are going to get in the way of them believing in themselves, and believing that they can achieve this result? And so if you can do some market research – and I just was talking with a business strategist on my Facebook page today; we did a Q and A all about what market research is and how you do it. So if people are interested, they can head on over to Alchemy Learning Solutions’ Facebook page, and watch that. But when you do the market research – – –
Sze Wing : 22:42 Definitely interested.
Jessica: 22:44 Okay. Sweet. So when you do the research, you’re having conversations with your ideal client, and you’re asking them some key questions to understand what is the pain point or the problem that they’re encountering, and then what would be their ideal results or solution. And when you get their language around that and hear what those problems are, then you can really speak to them and figure out, okay, so if someone has a belief that they’re never going to be able to lose the weight, because they’ve tried all the diets before, and even if they lost some weight, it has always come back or, you know, there are so many reasons why people might not believe – they might believe that they don’t have the discipline for it, or their family is not going to support them, or they’re in menopause and it’s just not going to work for their body, whatever.
Jessica: 23:37 And so if we know that those are the top four barriers that they’re believing, we can address them, right? So like, ‘I understand why you would believe that because, of course, you know, if you’ve tried it a bunch of times, all these other diets, how is this one different? Well, let me tell you how this program is different’. And then you can tell them. And then, like you said, midway through, you can remind them; ‘Hey, this is a point where some people tend to lose some steam and question, and that’s totally normal’. So normalize it. You could even offer a check-in call at that point. You know, ‘I would love to get on the phone with you and see how it’s going. And if it’s not going the way that you wanted it to go, this is the way that we’re going to break through that, because you can still achieve this outcome’. So, you know, I hope that’s answering your question.
Sze Wing : 24:30 Absolutely, love that. You know, you hit the point right now, because it’s about market research. You need to know your niche, you need to know the people, their pain point. And we hear that all the time from anybody who’s selling anything. But the difference is so often we fall off the wagon of being specific, as in we are trying to do everything, for everyone, all the time, right? So as I mentioned briefly before, say the three big things; find the right career, make more money, find the one, the relationship, or lose weight. You can’t help somebody on all three because going to do the market research? You can’t
Jessica: 25:09 Right.
Sze Wing : 25:09 The pain point and objection across it is – and this is the three biggest – within each view, actually there’s subcategories, sub niche, which is what we actually want to get into, right? Not even each the three big – it’s within the three big categories; even more narrow, which is better, in my opinion, to find the right data. Actually, we’re looking at the data, right; the market research about giving us information. And that was totally, really answering my question, is the market research. You need to know who to ask, and then you know what to ask, and then how you come up with solutions. And that kind of led me to my next question, which is what makes Alchemy Learning Solutions so different than the other services? I mean, you kind of already have given us a glimpse of it.
Jessica: 26:02 Yeah. So as I was doing my market research, what I discovered in this industry is that there are millions of people out there right now, creating online courses. It’s projected to be a $350 billion industry by 2024, so it’s growing rapidly. And what I’m seeing as the main way that my competitors are serving the market, is they’re teaching people how to do it themselves, because that’s a more affordable way for people to access creating courses, right? Well, at least they like to think it is, because time is a currency, and so they’re spending their time instead of their money.
Sze Wing : 26:45 If things don’t sell, what’s the point, right?
Jessica: 26:48 Yeah. There’s that too. Yeah. So I am not teaching people how to do it themselves. I have seen too many people fall into overwhelm and stop, and end up with nothing; no product to show for it. Or they get through, they slog through it, it’s painful, it takes a year, they put out this course and people don’t buy it or people don’t finish it. And so that’s not what I’m about. The other thing that I’ve seen is that there are people out there that are like, ‘Yeah, you come to me with your content and I’ll just get it up there for you. I’ll get it up on a platform for you’. And so they’re doing the technical stuff; they’re uploading it, they’re building your site, but they’re not looking to see, is this instructionally sound? Are there learning objectives? Have you defined what the result is going to be for your learner, and then built the course that meets those objectives? They’re not looking at that. So they’re just getting your stuff up there. So what I do, is I bring it all under one roof and I do it with you. I do it for you. I start with the business strategy. I combine that with the curriculum design that’s grounded in theory. And then I get it up on the platform. I do the graphic design, I do the video editing, I do the marketing. So all of it under one roof so that you can skip over all of those bumps of it not being effective, you’re not getting it done, it not selling
Sze Wing : 28:22 So exciting. You know, I’m a person who sometimes can just go very creative in my head and I have a bunch of ideas. And what I really hear from what you just said, is that it will be amazing to have someone to just, sort of, pull me down from all these ideas and concepts and translate into a language that the learner can understand. And let’s say I have a lot of things in my head that are good and beneficial, but you have to have a language to communicate to people, so they understand that’s the benefit; that’s the impact. Because sometimes we can’t articulate it, because we are so into the creating. You actually need a third person to say, ‘I think what you mean is this; this is the impact, that’s the benefit’. And we cannot articulate it well, we can’t market it well, we can’t sell it well. We become just saying a bunch of flowers.
Jessica: 29:19 Yeah. And you know, using the lingo that we know, but is that the language that our ideal client uses? Are they going to get it? Like I have a client right now,and she’s brilliant. And what she does is a really, kind of, niche thing. She calls it ‘knowledge work’. And I’m like, okay, you’ve got to break it down for me.
Sze Wing : 29:44 What does that mean? Right.
Jessica: 29:45 What does that mean? I know what knowledge is and I know what work is, but when you put it together, I don’t know what that means. So let’s translate it into human speak.
Sze Wing : 29:57 Yeah. Wisdom training is another thing that really got me. You can’t train to have wisdom. Like it’s just something you learn through trial and error and experience. You gain wisdom through many – you cannot train wisdom. It just doesn’t put together, like for me.
Jessica: 30:13 Yes.
Sze Wing : 30:13 But there’s so many of this wisdom training going on out there, empowerment training.
Jessica: 30:23 Yeah. Well, and I think the problem is, we’re so close to it, that we don’t realize. You know, to us, it seems so understandable, and obvious and intuitive. And so it’s great to have someone outside of you to reflect back to you like ‘Hello. We need to clarify this, because the whole point is to reach people that need it’
Sze Wing : 30:47 Yes. Or the best is that they don’t even know they need it until they saw your material. They’re like, ‘Oh, that’s what I’ve been looking for’. So it has been so exciting to hear you answering my questions and talk about your work. And I think those who want a career course, they really need to have a phone call with you and clarify some things. Because even I listen to, like, yeah, what’s my wisdom training all about, you know? So what’s the best way for people to connect with you or start thinking about wrapping heads around creating online courses and so forth?
Jessica: 31:27 Yeah. Well, I have just launched a new monthly call. It’s a mastermind for aspiring course creators. And it’s a free call. So I’m hosting the next one on November 10th. I’m not sure when this podcast is coming out, but people can find any of my upcoming dates on my website, alchemylearningsolutions.com/roundtables. And that’s where they can find these masterminds; sign up right there. They’re very small, intimate conversations so that people can really get their questions and problems workshopped and get advice from me on the spot.
Sze Wing : 32:05 Yes.
Jessica: 32:06 People can also find me on the website and we can schedule a 60 minute complimentary course clarity call, where we really dive into your strategy and your audience. So those are the best ways to get in touch with me.
Sze Wing : 32:18 This is amazing. I’m so going to your round table. And I love what you said, round table; it’s so Camelot, right?
Jessica: 32:27 Yes. You can wear your armour.
Sze Wing : 32:31 I’m the Lady of the Lake.
Jessica: 32:32 There you go.
Sze Wing : 32:35 All jokes aside, I think this is incredible. I’m so happy to interview you. And I think a lot of people out there, really listen. If they’re thinking about – even just thinking about creating a course, what we have talked about is so essential to start. So thank you so much. And I’ll put all the links down below on the detail summary. And thank you so much for your time.
Jessica: 33:00 Thank you. It was a pleasure.