In this episode, I talked to Marlene Cameron, a business leadership and life coach, about the effect and importance of clarity for performance, productivity, and profitability. We also discussed the importance of intuition and the benefits of stepping away from overthinking and allowing creativity to emerge.
Marlene Cameron is a Business Leadership and Life Coach, she is also a speaker and trainer. She has been training, coaching and mentoring business owners, executives and mental health professionals since 2002. She had a successful career in interior design, then as a business owner, management consultant and financial analyst. She has an MBA and CFA as well as all her coaching qualifications. She now works with entrepreneurs and leaders to discover the clarity to be more calm, certain and connected.
#1 – Introducing Marlene Cameron; trainer, coach. mentor. (00.25)
#2 – Qualifications; why successful women feel pressure to collect credentials; imposter syndrome, self-doubt. (02.56)
#3 – Controlling your feelings through thought; breaking habits and changing thought patterns (09.13)
#4 – Importance of being present; morning rituals, clearing your mind and discouraging unhelpful thought patterns (13.21)
#5 – The clarity effect model; Dense fog, partly cloudy, light haze, blue sky clarity (16.32)
#6 – Decision clarity advantage; the three components. MRI, IOU, FIT; using your intuition to create space for fresh ideas. (23.55)
#7 – Discussion on the importance of intuition; the benefits of stepping away from overthinking, allowing creativity to emerge (29.44)
If you would like to connect with Marlene and find out more about her coaching, please visit: www.marlenecameron.com
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Sze Wing : 00:03 Hi, everyone. Really happy to be back doing this episode of the podcast with you all. And today I have another overseas guest. Today we’ve got Marlene Cameron, and she’s a business, leadership and life coach, and she’s also a speaker and trainer. So first of all, welcome to my show.
Marlene: 00:22 Thank you. I’m delighted to be here.
Sze Wing : 00:25 Fantastic to have you here. Now, very quick introduction. So first of all, Marlene, she has been training, coaching and mentoring business owners, executives, and mental health professionals since 2002. So she has been around for bit, and she had a successful career in interior design, then as a business owner, management consultant and financial analysts. So, wow, a lot of different qualifications here. So we are going to talk about how all that becomes, you know, the path she’s on right now. She has an MBA and CFA, as well as all her coaching qualifications. She now works with entrepreneurs and leaders to discover the clarity, to be more calm, certain and connected. So that’s a very short introduction. I’m sure you have more to share with us, but, first of all, welcome. And I know that this is a very cold day where you are, compared to Australia. So I always love the fact that we can do this over such long distance and also be able to hear very different people’s perspectives. So, yeah, very warm welcome to you.
Marlene: 01:41 Thank you again.
Sze Wing : 01:42 And so I think the first question I had when I was preparing for this interview is that nowadays we hear a lot of women, very successful women, they have a bunch of credentials like yourself, right? So we heard the MBA, CFA and all that stuff. I think we are in a culture where – because now we’re given the opportunity, so women really try to seize the day and really dig deep into their potential to really live a life that matters and do the best they can. But I think sometimes it’s a two sided coin, because on one hand we are given opportunities and we can really, you know, do whatever we want, in a way, to achieve our ambition in life. But the other side of it is, that I also hear there’s a lot of struggle, to do it or have it all, or there’s a lot of complexity behind the other side of, now we have the opportunity. So now you have all these accomplishments and credentials. I’m sure at different times in your life, you have faced something like this. So what was your biggest struggle behind the scene – and that’s before you discovered your clarity?
Marlene: 02:56 Well, my biggest struggle behind the scenes – that’s a great question, by the way – is, for so many years I felt very inadequate and had a lot of self-doubt. Sometimes it’s referred to as imposter syndrome. So, women mostly – I shouldn’t say mostly; men experience it too, but women even more so – that are obviously very intelligent, you know, highly accomplished, successful professionals, entrepreneurs, leaders, who really struggle because they haven’t been able to internalize their capabilities, and internalize what they’ve achieved. And so there’s this fear that they’ve given the wrong impression; that they’re not that good, and that they’ll be discovered as, you know, having kind of, duped people into believing that they had the capabilities.
Sze Wing : 03:51 And is that why you actually get a bunch of qualifications? Do you think that’s your way of responding to it? Because I know some people try not to shine, not to, you know, get out there as much, because sometimes we’re crippled by the fear of this imposer syndrome and so forth. But for you was your way of coping with getting another, you know, very difficult, very big qualification?
Marlene: 04:18 Well, it’s – because of the inability to kind of like own it is, for me, it’s like looking for that external validation and that credentials and degrees and diplomas and things, gave me the, the credibility I didn’t think I had myself. So needed it to come from outside of me. And, you know, have the proof, if you will, that I was capable, and had really achieved a lot of these things and didn’t think it was any big deal.
Sze Wing : 04:54 And I guess many people can relate to this. So at what point, and suddenly you felt, you know, you could have kept on going. I mean, we could have five more of these at the end of the day.
Marlene: 05:08 Exactly. A few PhDs. Yes.
Sze Wing : 05:09 And, and it can be like – I find for a lot of women, it felt like a never ending target; it keeps moving. So, like, you know, maybe after this, I should have that, because it shows that I know this as well, so it will complement – we make up excuses to say why we need to get another proof or qualification to – so when did it come to, sort of, a converging pattern where you say, you know, wait a minute, what is that I really want to do? Where did your clarity come into play?
Marlene: 05:46 I think the clarity came from an experience I had. I was in a program where there was ongoing mastermind groups, and we were talking about networking and meeting people who maybe could – we could support or help in some way. And somebody had said to me, ‘Why don’t you just invite people for coffee and just see if there’s anything you can do to support them’?
Sze Wing : 06:12 Like, really simple,
Marlene: 06:13 Really simple. But I heard this voice in my head; literally, it said, what would be the point? You have nothing to offer. And this is, you know, I had my own successful business, I had lots of formal education and lots of real life experience. And I was so rattled, you know, when I heard that. I was telling a of colleague of mine; she says, ‘Marlene, you know, maybe you want to look at that’. So I went and got some help and worked with a coach/counsellor. And it’s like what I call the unraveling, like, starting to understand what was that all about? Where was that coming from? And so it took a little time, but I found something even more recently that really helped me understand and finally set me free from all of that fear and self doubt. And so, yeah, it was quite the journey though.
Sze Wing : 07:16 That was quite a challenge, wasn’t it? The fact that someone just offered, basically – not even offering, just mentioning, you know, why don’t you just talk to the person for coffee, and you’ve got lot to offer. Obviously your friend had that assumption or belief that you had lot to offer; even a quick coffee will help the other person. But for you, that becomes a very big deal, on the contrary, you think, ‘What?’. So what happened next? So you start to look at this particular, situation and say, ‘Hey, hold on a minute. Why am I feeling this way?’ When everybody else seems to agree that, you know, you have a lot to offer? Why do you think, ‘Oh no, it can’t be’? So what happened next?
Marlene: 08:04 Well, I came across, I’ll call it an understanding, about where our experience of life comes from, and it was very different from what I’d been led to believe up to then. I think we’re led to believe that our experience of life comes from outside of us; like, we’re in reaction to situations, or events, or people, or even memories. But what I learned is that is, our experience actually comes from inside of us, you know, everything flows through us and it specifically comes through our thought. And so if I’m feeling anxious or worried, it’s actually my own thinking that’s having me experience that. It’s not anything anybody said, or didn’t do, or didn’t say. And so if we fall into habitual patterns of thinking about, ‘I could have done that better’, or ‘That person knows more than me’, innocently, we’re creating that, you know, the stress and pressure to perform that comes from inside of us; it doesn’t come from the outside world.
Marlene: 09:13 So once I learned that, it’s like, okay, so if I understood that when I feel inadequate, or if I don’t feel good enough, or I don’t feel like I measure up, that’s actually coming from me from these old patterns of thinking, right. And the thoughts in themselves, aren’t true, obviously, but because we feel are thinking in the moment, it feels real, right? We’ve all done that little experiment, you know, where you can say, you know, like, I’m not very good, and you can literally feel your energy go down on your body. And two seconds later, you can say, you know, I’ve got this, I’m pretty good at this, and you can feel your energy lift. So we’re actually responding to our thinking. And even if somebody said something to us, we could take it so many different ways. Right. You know, if we’re feeling lighthearted and in a good mood, it’s like, oh, that person’s just, they’re just having a, you know, bad day. And you know, I’m not going to take it personal. But if we’re in a bit in the funk ourselves and something somebody might say, we can interpret it in a way that, that, you know, that we feel even more hard on ourselves.
Sze Wing : 10:27 And you make me think about recently I also looked at that, sort of, a framework where how you feel obviously come from what you think about just before. Right. So then looking at the thoughts and think about whether – look at it in a very neutral perspective; whether it’s my thoughts and is it true? Is it a fact, or is it a story I make really? Really helped me to, you know, look at it differently. And then 10 seconds later, my feelings may be gone, because once I realized the feeling comes from this particular thought, and this thought is not even true, or maybe like, you know, sometimes it’s even something more external, like you had a bad night’s sleep, you were grumpy over something, you didn’t have food in the morning; many other reasons to cause that leaning into a certain way of looking at some facts or our own thoughts, and then we create those feelings. So do you prepare yourself a clean slate or neutral slate? So how do you, you know, start your day with a more open and neutral perspective, so we think ourselves into bad feelings?
Marlene: 11:44 Well, you know, when I can I, start my day with activities that just have me be more present. So I might do a little bit of reading, I might do a little bit of yoga. I used to teach yoga years ago. If I’ve got time, I might go for a walk. And so it’s interesting, because when we’re present, we’re not entertaining lots of those kinds of thoughts; we’re just enjoying the moment, and being in the moment, and being attentive to the moment. And then we kind of fall back into our thinking, and then the unsettling feelings come up. And it’s like, okay, so I’ve just fallen back into that thinking. And you know, if I can become more, present – because that’s the only place we can deal with life.
Marlene: 12:34 That’s the only place we experience life, we can deal with life because that’s where the creative ideas will come from, that’s where the solutions, the problems will come from. So the more we’re aware that, especially if we start to, you know, where our mood starts to go down and we start to feel nervous, it’s like, okay, so I just know that that’s coming from thinking. And sometimes the thinking is actually invisible. Like, I don’t know, I’m thinking all the time. We have tens of thousands of thoughts every day, but it’s like our emotional – people call emotional intelligence, but all it is, is like a built into the system. So we’re being notified in terms of where our thinking has gone.
Sze Wing : 13:21 I sometimes find it like a bit of detective work; like if I suddenly feel, ‘Why am I feeling so edgy?’, then you follow the bread crumbs. Right. Then you’re like, ‘Oh, because I was thinking those things’. So I was doing certain things, then that leads to this. So I really resonate with what you said; the presence. So first of all, self awareness; when you are aware, then when you can be very present. It felt like that’s when you experience life, the truth. And you know, you’re not hijacked by those random thoughts, true or not. Right. So everybody has a different way to get into the present. So some people like walking, or reading and meditation, all these things help – yoga. I definitely think a 10 minute time for yourself in the morning really helps me to get into what you call presence. For me, it was just my morning ritual. I do it automatically and I don’t even an analyze the effect. But now when you talk about it, I realize that’s when I try to have a clean slate. And I think the magic is to find your own way to get there. Like everyone is different and I never want to like preach or ask people, that you have to do this, you have to do that. I mean, I didn’t read that book, but that thing I hear is a book about 5:00 AM club for successful people or something, like very set way of how to get to this amazingness that we are after. But I don’t think you can have one size fits all.
Marlene: 15:00 Well, it’s interesting you should say that, because our default state is actually mental wellbeing. Like if we fall out of this thinking that’s having us feel, you know, nervous or anxious, we’ll naturally feel calm, and present and alert. And so it’s anything we can do to, sort of, disrupt that, you know, you think about, a hurricane and there’s that calm in the middle of the hurricane. And then there’s all this swirling cloud around the outside. And it’s like, okay, I’m in the swirling, thinking cloud thing right now, you know, cause I can feel it. And sometimes it’s just a matter of just noticing, and then we can kind of start to relax and become more present. I’ve experimented with actually just getting curious about what that feeling is in my body, and kind of following it around a little bit and then it just kind of dissipates on its own.
Marlene: 15:57 Or I just am more deliberate; okay, it’s time for a break, and go for a walk or something like that. Because it’s – I don’t think we can do one thing in the morning, then guard against any type of discouraging thinking throughout the day. You know, it’s just understanding that that our emotions will let us know when we’ve run off track and, you know, gone falling into, you know, the ‘Am I good enough? Who am I?’ type of thinking and, just to bring us back and say, ‘Okay, I’m here, I’m present, I can handle this’.
Sze Wing : 16:32 Yeah. Now, perfect segue when you talk about the storm and eye of the storm, because I know you mentioned in your work that the clarity effect, you know, that the four states – so it’s like a bit like the weather. Can you tell us a bit more about that?
Marlene: 16:48 Yeah. I created the model because I think that we don’t often understand that when individuals go into feeling stressed or nervous or overwhelmed or something, we tend not – either it’s very difficult to make a decision or sometimes to make decisions that we’re not happy with later. So I use is the metaphor of the weather, and the first, you think about, you know, the rung of a ladder. So if you’re on the bottom rung of the ladder, I call it dense fog. So this is pretty self-explanatory; you know, people don’t have a lot of vision, foresight, tend to be, very overwhelmed, overthinking, often overworking. It’s like when we can’t get a clear mind, we kind of go around and around. And so what somebody would feel who’s experiencing these dense, foggy factors.
Marlene: 17:49 There’s a lot of pressure to perform and sometimes even panic. And because they’re so overwhelmed, often they overwork, they may not even take breaks until they get, you know, sick or something like that, struggle to make decisions, often have a never ending to do list and tend not to delegate. And so if they have people working with them, they have a small team, the team may not be working effectively because they don’t have the clarity either, you know, what’s important, what needs to get done. And so sometimes people will experience that their business just, sort of, languishing, right? So the next stage, I called it partly cloudy. So this is when the business leader, owner would have kind of that moments of clarity, or it’s like, ‘Oh yeah, this is what we’re gonna do. This is direction we’re going to go’. And then it’s almost like the cloud rolls in; it’s like, ‘I don’t know. Do you think that’s a good decision? Do you think’ – you know, that kind of the self-doubt and the second guessing. So this kind of stop and start effect. And I personally experienced this quite a bit too, because I think I’ve got an idea, then I start to, kind of, question myself.
Marlene: 19:11 So, you know, you’re in this category when you’re still working long hours, and probably don’t take a lot of time off work unless you’re kind of pressured to do so by family or friends.
Sze Wing : 19:24 Like Christmas.
Marlene: 19:24 Exactly; exactly. Take time off or else, right? You know, and the to-do list is kind of growing and shrinking, because, you know, when we have that clarity and we do make good decisions, things start to kind of smooth out; we feel more productive and then, you know, it can kind of go sideways again. And again, the team is kind of hot and cold, you know, according to the leader, and business results, of course, are unpredictable because, you know, because there’s not that continuity and that consistency.
Marlene: 19:59 So the next level – we’ll go up the ladder a little bit – I call it light haze. So obviously there’s greater perspective, you can see a little bit further. But for the business owner, leader, it can feel a little monotonous, even. You know, somebody might even feel a little bored; it’s kind of like groundhog day. So, you know, the business or the work is manageable, but there may not be a lot of excitement there. And the leader, you know, maybe takes time off for work, but takes work on vacations. And because there’s not that clarity or whatever, there’s usually not risk taking. And, you know, for a business to grow and to evolve, people have to take risks. So they have to have the confidence to make some decisions, which might feel really challenging.
Marlene: 21:04 And the team might be doing okay, but there’s not a lot of creativity and innovation in the business, so it’s kind of going along okay, but it’s not particularly exciting or rewarding. And then the fourth category you take this big step up the ladder; I call it blue sky clarity. So you know you’re here as a business owner, leader when you just have this confidence and this ease. It’s this, this lighthearted feel, the ability to be very focused. You can make decisions, almost as if you’re guided by like a higher intelligence, it’s like, you know, something will come to mind and you just know it’s the right thing to do, and you can follow through and, you know, give the vision to people who are working with you.
Marlene: 22:00 And so the business owner doesn’t have to work so hard. They can take time off, maybe even, you know, work a shorter week or take extended holidays and things like that. And because the owner or the leader is able to delegate with a lot more clarity and confidence, it gives confidence to the team. And so they know what’s needed, what’s expected of them. They’re able to use their own creativity and their own innovative ideas. And it’s just a much lighter, you know, fun place to work. And, so inevitably the business does well and sales and profitability is really almost beyond what the owner or the leader kind of expected. So, we go from that dense fog, where things are feeling quite bogged down and the business is languishing, to this blue sky effect where, it’s just this lighthearted creativity and what we call a flow state, right? People are kind of working in that zone state.
Sze Wing : 23:11 That’s exactly what I was having in mind when you’re talking. In my work, I would call it, you know you are in the flow and you’re not bucking the current, because you have the clarity, you have the ease and things are going really well. So obviously my burning question on that is that, so now great, we know our state; I know I’m bloody in the dense fog. So what do I do? And does it take long to get from one state to another? Like sometimes I realize that I’m short of breath, so my health is not great, or, oh gosh, I realize I haven’t had a vacation for four years. Then let’s say suddenly you have that realization, and then what’s next? How are we going to move, you know, without struggle through it?
Marlene: 23:55 Right. Well, when I designed this decision clarity advantage, I called it, there’s three components. So the first one, I called it an MRI; so mind rescue incubator. Somehow you have to rescue your busy head, and your thinking – and you know, the proverbial snow globe with all the little particles in it. And then you set the snow globe down, and all the particles shift to the bottom, and now you’ve got this clarity, right? So you can see clearly, you know there’s space in your mind for this, for newer, fresher ideas to come in. So that’s the first part. The second part, I call it an IOU; so an inside-out understanding. So there’s two aspects to this; it’s realizing that your experience is coming from within you.
Marlene: 24:51 If you’re experiencing any anxiety, or stress, or worry, that’s coming from inside you; that’s not coming from the outside world, because as you know, people deal with the same situation differently. But the other part of the inside-out understanding is that that’s where the answers are inevitably going to come. I mean, somebody might, have some suggestions, or you could brainstorm, or you could see other people’s best practices, but the right answer for you is actually going to come from within you. So from inside you, right; you know, through your own insights, your own intuition, your own a-ha moments. And so the third thing is what I call FIT, or this fresh, insightful thinking. I don’t know if you recall the quotation by Albert Einstein; it says you can’t solve a problem with the same level of thinking that created it, right?
Marlene: 25:44 So you have to step back from all of the analyzing, and comparing, and organizing and you know, going back, and how we did it last time and create this space for these new, fresh ideas to come, because that’s inevitably what’s going to take you to the next level, or take your business to the next level. It’s going to come from, you know, not from your own knowing, but this deeper intuition; this deeper – we all have this, kind of, inner dimension where we have access to this universal wisdom and this deep insight and fresh ideas.
Sze Wing : 26:24 So I think they make total logical sense. So once we know our states, we know we may need help; we need to get out from this bad weather into the blue sky weather. And these are really great processes to coach us and guide us with our mind, to get to where we want to go. So how do you apply this with people? So is it through conversation, then, you know, you kind of lead them along the way? How does it work in a, you know, one-to-one setting or one to the team setting?
Marlene: 27:02 Well, how I like to work with the business or the owner – the business owner, leader manager rather, is I take them through a three day – I call it insights immersion program. Because this is a completely different understanding, in terms of recognizing how our mind actually works. Right? So it’s helping people understand that, you know, this calm clarity is already built into their system, right? What their experience is in the world is coming through their thinking, you know? Where these new, fresh ideas are going come from is not hiring a consultant to bring into your business; it’s actually going to come from inside you. So like a paradigm shift. You know, it’s like if you grew up thinking the world was flat and then somebody came along and said, it’s round, you’d say like, ‘I don’t know if that’s right’. So it takes time for people to not only understand things at the intellectual basis, but to have it kind of sink in, so they know it at a more visceral level, and they’ll start to respond from that place. Because it’s a very different way of seeing how life works and how our own internal operating system works.
Sze Wing : 28:30 I agree that sometimes you have to give people the space and time. Like, I’m not saying you lock them up for three days, but I love hose programs where you actually have to take time off; whether it is an afternoon or three days, but to really detach from the usual environment. So if you want fresh thinking, you cannot go back to exactly the same operating system and you think then you will have fresh thinking come from nowhere. Right? So, you know, going somewhere for even half a day, it makes a difference because it’s like you have to empty out. And I think you mentioned somewhere in your work that, a lot of times people spend lots of money and time trying to fix these kinds of problems, but it never seems to work. And I don’t know whether that’s the way you looked at it too; that, you know why people are not getting the results they want? And I think this quick fix, just pull some dollars into, you know, getting a consult in or, you know, just very artificially pumping something into the mix, it’s not going work. It’s inside-out, like you said.
Marlene: 29:44 Because our culture is so thinking focused, you know, if you just think hard enough, you can figure this out. If you, you know, pick other people’s brains, you can figure it out. We often don’t let that settle and create a space for something actually new to emerge. Right. We don’t let that snow globe settle. All those little particles are constantly floating around in there. And so the idea that you actually stop all that analyzing, and assessing, and comparing, almost for some people, it feels counterintuitive. It’s like, well, wait a minute. Where else is the idea going to come from to solve this problem? And so it’s interesting when people who teach this understanding, go into organizations, it takes people a little bit of time to understand where -you know, we don’t have the 10 step agenda here. We’re going to get you there. You know, actually stop thinking so much and let this creativity emerge. Right.
Sze Wing : 30:58 I love it, because you’re so right. Sometimes you cannot think your way out of this maze. In fact, if you step back and stop thinking, the answer actually comes to you very often. Our body know the answers; you know what food is good and bad for you. We don’t have to think it out all the time. And it is true. Like especially in this fast-paced society, now you kind of want the answer yesterday, right? So to ask people to stop thinking, stop working, stop pushing, take a step back to let it come to you, it felt very difficult. To do nothing for a minute, it’s very hard.
Marlene: 31:45 Yeah. And yet people who understand how the mind works are very good at that. You hear a cute story about Edison, you know, he went fishing every day, because he knew that was a place where he’d have a nice, quiet mind. And he came up with more of his innovations and things. And apparently he didn’t put any bait on his hook, because he didn’t actually want to catch fish; he just wanted that template of time to just let his mind relax. And because he knew that that’s where his innovative ideas came from.
Sze Wing : 32:18 Yeah. What a beautiful story. And I cannot agree with you more, because this is actually what I’ve been coaching people as well – that sometimes people ask me, ‘So how can you do all these things in this short period of time?’ It’s because it’s not about doing; sometimes it’s about not doing. And it’s like, you pause or even you stop, but then you can speed up very quickly because you know where you’re going and how you’re going to drive there, rather than wandering around the block three times. It is an art though. It’s not easy because it may sound easy to say, ‘Just pause, and the answer will come to you’. It’s not that easy because these days, I find it harder to do non-action than action, or convincing people to just take a break. It’s actually harder to tell people than to tell them to work harder.
Marlene: 33:10 Yeah. We’ve given all of this credence to our intellect.
Sze Wing : 33:14 Yes.
Marlene: 33:14 And the intellect is what we already know; you know, our education, experience, all the expertise we’ve built up. But we’ve kind of dismissed the intuition as being like woo-woo or something like that, without recognizing that that’s where the good stuff comes from, that you haven’t known up until now.
Sze Wing : 33:34 And it’s also to be able to discern. I mean, that is some rabbit hole in some new age teaching as well, I reckon. But they’re also a lot of germs, but then the thing is, if you are not able to discern them, then it can be a wild goose chase. But all that is said, I do think it’s important to just take a step back and get some clarity, one way or the other; whether with a coach, like yourself, or even just, you know, go for a walk on your own and it may come to you what may be the better next step. So to wrap this all up, I will, first of all, love to thank you for your time today, talking to us about clarity and different ways of thinking about our so-called problems. One, one thing I want to add is that, you know, people say don’t work harder, but work smarter. Do you think this smarter notion felt challenging? Like, okay, so I had to think how to work smarter. Like even this smarter idea, it’s not easy
Marlene: 34:38 I think if we recognize it, we’ve got both. So we’ve got this intellectual body of knowledge, like we’ve got that. Right. But when we understand there’s also this insight, or intuition, or universal intelligence, whatever you want to call it, so when we’ve got both. We have so much more at our – you know, so much more capacity. And the thing is what I’ve found, you know, when an idea comes up through what we call insight, it comes with a really nice feeling, like that feeling like the penny drops, or kind of goes like funk or, you know, it’s like, oh yeah, yeah, that’s it right? Like, you know it. It comes through.
Sze Wing : 35:28 I know, I completely agree that feeling. And oftentimes, what people are not aware of, is that when that inside feeling comes, it’s not just the woo-woo intuition. Actually you have a lot of building knowledge and experience; your data has been collected until this point. You know, it’s not just random basis, actually you have a lot of information stored in your mind; you just haven’t pulled them out. But through this data bank, when the intuition or idea can comes, it just kind of, it’s a line.
Marlene: 35:59 It converges, yes.
Sze Wing : 36:00 Yes, it converges, it connects. The bridge is set. And then you’re like, that’s the right decision because you actually combine all these things together. And it is a process we have built in, in this intelligent way of figuring things out, without trying and pushing too hard. But it’s to be at that place to let it come to us in some way. So anyway, I loved talking with you about this clarity, and I think there’s a lot more that you offer. Even a simple coffee chat would delight many, to the contrary of what you first thought. So what is the best way for people to find you, if they want to take a step further and learn more from you about clarity and what you do?
Marlene: 36:50 Well, my website is quite simple; it’s marlenecameron.com, and my email is firstname.lastname@example.org. So pretty simple.
Sze Wing : 37:01 So I guess that’s a perfect place to start. So I will also put your details, the link on the show notes. But thank you so much. And I know we don’t have the whole day, because we can do this immersion and this conversation forever long. So thank you so much for joining me today.
Marlene: 37:21 Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you.